Talk:Mohammed Deif

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mohammed Deif article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 20 days

Mohammed Deif was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 10, 2024, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

Palestine Mid‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Terrorism task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / Middle East / North America / United States / Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force
	Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989)

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Archives

1

This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by .

Survived 5 other attacks?

If this is true and not hearsay, a reference should be included.

Why is Hamas’ claims of him being alive given more weight than the IDF’s assertions he’s dead?

Hamas is a terrorist group that has nothing to gain by confirming his death. It will only hurt their morale. On the other hand, the IDF’s intelligence confirming Deif was eliminated in the strike seems pretty well supported. For what it’s worth, Hamas hasn’t confirmed Marwan Issa’s death either but that’s still confirmed according to Wikipedia. So why the double standard for Deif? 2401:D002:8705:D400:E947:7A4C:5443:534D (talk) 11:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's Wikipedia. It's not supposed to make sense. 2600:1700:E255:10:5C12:F40:3B57:33BD (talk) 21:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So true. 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 04:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas admitted it.

No reason for this discussion to continue.

Citation: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-now-accepts-israel-killed-muhammad-deif-has-arrested-2-people-sources-tell-paper/

LesbianTiamat (She/Her) (troll/pester) 17:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome work, @LesbianTiamat. Thank you. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the idf can show us his body, and his exact picture at the moment they dropped a one-tonne bomb in an area where civilians were sheltering in tents then we can talk The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His body was blown to smithereens, so it won't be showed. It would be much easier for Hamas to diffuse an audio or video proving he is alive, no? --160.78.149.35 (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israel is the accuser. The burden of proof is on them. Their silly infographics won’t work and have numerous times proven to be false The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As always, history repeats itself! The article mentions how Israel claimed Deif was assasinated in 2014, which was disproven in 2015... I just think it will take time for Deif to be confirmed alive Deus vult fratres! (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states:

In August 2014, during the 2014 Gaza War, the Israeli air force attempted to assassinate him with an airstrike on the Deif family home in Sheikh Radwan in Gaza City. Hamas denied that Deif was killed, and his survival was confirmed by Israeli intelligence in 2015.

If Israel falsely claimed that Deif was assassinated, that should definitely be explicitly stated Jesse Flynn (pseudonym) (talk) 02:06, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird, I think I didn't read this on Wikipedia ... or that the article was edited Deus vult fratres! (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I love how you felt the need to bring up the civilians as though it's relevant to this too, lmao. Yeah you're not biased at all, Mule 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 16:34, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe because the people bombed were civilians? I don’t know, maybe where you’re at you’re taught Palestinians are animals that can be slaughtered in any number and not actual human beings. My bias (more like common sense really) doesn’t matter here The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Riiiiiight. Well, I won't say more since apparently your outrageous bias and false accusations are allowed here but responses to it get deleted, so I'll just wish you luck with that BS, Mule. 2603:9008:2101:E2F3:425:A6EF:6530:D9C3 (talk) 01:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it by writing into the infobox details about his death with the parenthetical statement that it's disputed by Hamas. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW Al-Arabiya has for a couple weeks had a report citing a "Hamas source" as having confirmed Deif's death. This would support your approach. PrimaPrime (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This sequence of edits (along with the edit summary) seems to establish a new standard that unless Hamas officially confirms the death of its leaders, Wikipedia will not use other references that do confirm a death. I would think that would be a gross violation of WP:NPOV? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a participant in that sequence, however for example leaders which Hamas did not confirm the assassination of are still listed as killed (most notably Marwan Issa, Hamas did not confirm his death).

the reason Mohammad deif’s “assassination” is so controversial is that there are two parties involved already clashing with each other on wether he was killed, the lack of conclusive evidence of this supposed assassination and most controversially the manner of this “assassination” where 90 civilians were killed because Israel dropped several 1-tonne bombs (gladly supplied by America) over areas where civilians were sheltering The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per edit summary in this edit, Deif will continue to be shown on Wikipedia as alive until 2080, unless Hamas confirms his death before that.
But it may be possible that we could shave 6 years off of that, allowing Wikipedia to show Deif as dead as soon as 2074. The IDF obviously has evidence that Deif is dead, otherwise they wouldn't confirm his death — they would continue to put him on their most wanted list. As far as I understand, all military secrets in Israel are declassified after 50 years, so the evidence may be declassified in 2074 (but there may be a mechanism to extend the classifications of certain classified material by another 25 years, I'm not really sure).

Until then, let Deif live his life on Wikipedia. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 23:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the sole party alleging to have “assassinated” him has a track record of lying when they Bomb civilians and claim to target individual militants, then the thing someone with common sense would do is to treat their allegations as nothing more than allegations The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at the FAQ for a more detailed analysis. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Description of Mohammed Deif

In the first paragraph of the main article Mohammed Deif is described as a "militant". This is BBC language. He is/was a terrorist and should be described as such. His al-Qassam Brigades were nothing other than a terrorist group. Dori1951 (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done, see MOS:TERRORIST. - Ïvana (talk) 19:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can also take a look at One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Asharq Al-Awsat confirms Deif's death.

Here is the source linked to the Saudi Arabia owned newspaper: https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-suggests-death-qassam-brigades-leader ULLIRALDMOOR (talk) 23:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. I have incorporated this reference into the article. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hamas denied this per https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2024/11/03/hamas-denies-martyrdom-of-its-military-leader-mohammed-deif Pachu Kannan (talk) 12:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both dead and alive

So we now have a source, Asharq Al-Awsat, saying that Hamas has acknowledged Deif's death, with another source saying that they are still denying his death. WP:RSP does not have a listing for Asharq Al-Awsat, so I don't know if there are reliability issues with it. Assuming Asharq Al-Awsat has no reliability issues, I would say that Deif should continue to be listed as dead, with Hamas disputing the reports that it has internally acknowledged his death. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think one newspaper citing anonymous sources is strong enough to state definitively in wiki voice that he is dead. Per WP:BLP, people are presumed to be living unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. The burden of proof lies with those making the assertions. This newspaper only mentions "sources close to Deif". Moreover, Hamas has explicitly denied these claims. So we're back to square one: the IDF (and now one newspaper) claim he is dead, and Hamas says he's not. In the absence of concrete evidence affirming otherwise, he should be presumed to be alive. - Ïvana (talk) 00:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we are back to square one. It's one newspaper saying that Hamas is privately acknowledging that he's dead. To the best of my knowledge, the newspaper has not recanted its story. Unless we can impeach the credibility of the newspaper, then there really is no dispute that he is dead. Hamas accusing the newspaper of falsehood is not an impeachment of the credibility of the newspaper. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have a newspaper asserting Hamas said something and Hamas explicitly deniying it. Why would the newspaper unverified claim have more weight that a statement coming from them? - Ïvana (talk) 12:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if you read the reference, but the reference is quite unequivocal. Here are some key sentences from the reference.

new evidence points to the assassination of Mohammed Deif
Samples were taken from the body, and it was later buried in Khan Younis. Tests on these samples reportedly confirmed the remains likely belonged to Deif
after prolonged silence and a complete communication cutoff, Qassam leaders are now convinced Deif was killed.

Unless you can impeach the credibility of Asharq Al-Awsat, the article has to show him as dead with Hamas refusing to publicly acknowledge it. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden if you want to see an example, go to Massoud Rajavi, someone who has been both death and alive for two decades.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre English and incorrect article link

Pseudonym is a common enough word in English lexicon that it should be used over the French presented here. Additionally "US banknotes" were only a thing until the early 20th century. He was holding US dollars. The linked wiki article makes this seem like he got a hold of unusable currency. The dollar facing the camera contains the large head enhancement from the early 21st century.

This feels like it was created by someone using a poor translator. Happy to help edit but it's protected. If there's a way to submit a draft, please let me know. I'm new to protected articles but this was too egregious. Ieditthethings (talk) 12:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ieditthethings: I changed banknotes to dollars as you suggested, but kept "nom de guerre" because it specifically denotes an alias adopted for use in militant activities, so it seems more appropiate. The word is wikilinked anyways so any doubt can be cleared up by reading the linked article. - Ïvana (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]